Welcome e-panel and e-audience

Thank you very much for the invite to participate, all the best to you Katherine. Andrea

I'd love to continue this Adam

gary_martin@sympatico.ca

Fine discussion - thanks for letting me participate!

On behalf of Ann and myself, thank you everyone for your participation in this excellent discussion today. Your participation is greatly appreciated and this discussion has touched on several key issues that will be interesting for my research. LEED-ND is a valuable tool for sustainable community development and I look forward to analyzing this information further.

Does anyone have any final comments or questions for the group?

Bumping space, thank you for your participation Alastair.

I apologize everyone, but I must go to collect my daughter from school - it's her last day today and there is much to do to wrap things up at school. It's been a great pleasure to e-talk with all of you. Alastair

This connects then to the need to provide 'space' for connection, for transportation infrastructure choice, most notably, the option to walk to obtain some essential services? and so forth? As Putman asks, do you want more policemen or more people knowing their neighbours, but then,people need places then to connect, to meet, simply to engage in conversation with diverse groups of people?

I think LEED has succeeded in part because we North Americans are enamored with rating everything, but again how do you prescribe "a good neighborhood"? The buildings are easy - most of us can agree on criteria for green building - but neighborhoods vary so dramatically because of the people in them.

BREEAM in the UK has tried to prescribe the social capital part of it - and this is what I think is missing from LEED ND

http://www.breeam.org/page.jsp?id=372

I quote a general criterium

"Community - promoting community networks and interaction, involvement in decision making, supporting public services, social economy and community structure, and community management of the development"

Building on Alastair's comments that we need to customize to respond to local sustainability imperatives and Katherine and Roger's comments, how can LEED respond to these imperatives?

The Pilot version of LEED-ND was very weak with respect to social aspects of community design. The 2009 LEED-ND version we saw some improvement. However out of entire system approximately 15 points are allocated to social aspects of a community. Are projects aiming to acquire points for the social and affordable housing component of LEED-ND based on your experiences?

Thank you, Roger, on behalf of myself and Katherine. As well, my research team is currently working on a municipal policy agenda for the implementation of sustainable community agenda which we will gladly share when finalized in September.

Thanks Ann - a couple of quick comments

regarding energy labeling (Roger's comment) energy requirements will become more stringent in Canada starting next year as per NRC and NRCan - I suppose that's the equivalent of labeling in a way

Regarding LEED ND - some of you have alluded to this already - is it an attempt to measure something that is too complex to measure? i.e a neighborhood?

[quote="Ann Dale"]Here is another pitch for for diversity, are not the most attractive landscapes the most diverse, are not the most attractive communities those with diverse building types? But then, what is community, without people. For example, was recently in Kingsburgh, Nova Scotia, beautiful former fishing village, diverse housing stock, mostly renovated, but only inhabited 2-3 weeks of the year by wealthy internationalists, but what diversity of actors, playwrights, and so forth. Long introduction to our last question and mayhap the most difficult.

Okay, let's assume we keep LEED-ND. If so, how can it be strengthened to address the social imperatives of sustainable community development?

Perhaps the 'innovation' points could be expanded/amended to include some sort of local cusomization/interpretation of the LEED system. Case in point. We did a comprehensive green reno of our house that was inspired by LEED but made relevant and personally valuable by shaping and moulding the project to meet our personal/local sustainability goalls. Would our home achieve LEED standards? Maybe, but is it a something I'd pay money for? You bet! Can we do this with LEED ND? Mabye. We must be able to customize to respond to local sustainability imperatives.

I'm not sure if we have answered your three questions - Unfortunately I have to leave for a luncheon.

There is lots of fodder here - I have been asked to do an on line learning credit for GaGBC re the Olympic Village designation as LEED ND Platinum. I think this should be available on August 15th. Will include slides and a voice over - I hope to focus on the issues of community integration, energy, water and financial along with commentary on the Social issues.

I wanted to write a couple more chapters for the Challenge Series but unfortunately the Federal funding for this was cancelled following the take over of the Village by the City of Vancouver - but someday I hope the full story will be told!

If anyone is interested in pursuing these issues further - my e mail is roger@rogerbayley.com

I have had a request from a doctoral student in geography from Carleton University to join us, Gary Martin, who previous to his doctoral studies, has been heavily involved in the construction industry. Welcome, Gary.

Here is another pitch for for diversity, are not the most attractive landscapes the most diverse, are not the most attractive communities those with diverse building types? But then, what is community, without people. For example, was recently in Kingsburgh, Nova Scotia, beautiful former fishing village, diverse housing stock, mostly renovated, but only inhabited 2-3 weeks of the year by wealthy internationalists, but what diversity of actors, playwrights, and so forth. Long introduction to our last question and mayhap the most difficult.

Okay, let's assume we keep LEED-ND. If so, how can it be strengthened to address the social imperatives of sustainable community development?

Exactly - my wife just sold a condo she inherited in England - we had to spend 350 pounds to get a certificate for the door saying how efficient the init was.

unfortunately only a very small sector of the social structure is interested/aware of these issues - -most people are watching sports, wondering where there money is and pondering other issues.

I was recently in Paris at an international social science meeting on global environmental change. Was surprised to see real estate ads, both rental and for sale properties that listed both the energy efficiency and GHG emissions of the buildings?

In my recent work with the development industry - it all comes down to money money money - and our sole focus is now on building the connection between Building Performance and Value to the owner and the user - and there is a HUGE gap between these tow groups.

the issue becomes how to justify in real terms - not just chatter - the connectivity between investment and operational costs - which all reflect on resource consumption and the issues of resource depletion and carbon emissions

The definition of sustainable development that many of us believe is the following: sustainable development can be regarded as a process of reconciliation of the eological, social and economic imperatives, and equitable access to these three imperatives is fundamental to its implementation (Dale, 2001; Robinson and Tinker, 1997).

There is literature that shows the importance of social diversity to economic prosperity, especially in a highly connected and globalized world. As well, social innovation is inherently collaborative, so perhaps socially diverse communities are more innovative. What communities of interest do the most modern trends and patterns emerge from? I do agree, however, that we have done a very poor job of measuring and valuing diversity, and its critical importance to social, economic life, although lots of stuff on its importance to ecological systems.

I wonder why with a simple stroke of the legislative pen we couldn't require that real estate cant be sold unless it has an energy label - we demand this every time we buy a can of beans!!

If this was required then the consumer could make an intelligent choice and would likely not buy the beans with all the salt!

M and V and resource supply are absolutely pertinent at the community scale - where energy can be managed between users and generators - ie office buildings generate thermal energy from air conditioning.

I think the public has little understanding of Sustainable Community development - however the concepts are being embraced by municipalities where they are having to confront the demands of infrastructure development and resource supply.

Is M & V possible at a community scale vs a building scale? The social culture of residents make it difficult to assess with respect to varying lifestyle choices. Ex. You can build a community with homes equipped for solar hookup but a resident may choose to spend money on granite countertops.

Is there an understanding among buyers of what it is to live in a sustainable community.

The real issue for sustainability rests in the design of the community infrastructure and the decisions that impact transportation, resource generation and disposal and related energy issues. Along with the commitments to social mix and financial viability. Communities have to decide if they are prepared to fund social affordable housing - as there is NO way such housing can be developed without community )government) subsidies.

I guess we all need to examine why social balance is actually part of Sustainable community development - is this essential to the fundamental issues - settlement has traditionally always followed lines of economic strata -

Recently in China I was asked why I would advocate for a socially mixed community when China has just spent the past 20 years trying to move away from such a commune culture - interesting.

On the other end. I understand (correct me if I am wrong) that under the USGBC a condominium complex can certify under LEED-ND? Thoughts?

I believe the issue is going to be focused on the third party issue of verification. If owner/designer/builder set out to do LEED project and market it accordingly and the the third party reviewer deems that the project hasn't achieved this status there are legal ramifications - and builders and owners are sceptical about spending the resources to make this happen. It is interesting that Sustainable Development has been blamed for the financial debacle at the Vancouver Olympic Village - and as such has put the development industry off from making the LEED commitments on subsequent projects. Whereas the real overrun costs where associated with the commitment to the Olympic Program - likely in the order of a premium of $150 to $175 a sq. ft.

Alastair, a sustainable community then has to have the infrastructure for these kinds of choices? I am thinking here of traditional 50 and 60s suburb design, based solely on car transportation?

I think there is a larger question there Katherine, can a community be considered sustainable without connectivity or alternative transportation?

Many of the prerequisites make it difficult to apply LEED-ND to a rural setting. Should LEED-ND allow for certification if the community isn't connected to other areas or public transportation methods?

While I understand that LEED is aspirational and not a code - the legal profession is starting to side with the residents of LEED certified buildings where it can be demonstrated that the buildings have been marketed with certain aspirations but don't perform to them. Hence the need for M and V

rbayley - I absolutely second your opinion about measuring and monitoring

A certification system that takes into consideration place characteristics, how would you design such a system? There is a movement in governments towards place-based policy-making.

Walkability should consider max distances (given residents' physical abilities) for sure, but relying on the proximity metric alone misses some of the story. Safety issues and aesthetics of the walking experience need to be considered (lighting, shading, soft landscaping, greenery, noise, traffic issues, etc)

M and V are the most important component of any Sustainable program - if you don't measure you CANNOT Manage.

M and V should be mandatory on all LEED programs - so that one can substantiate the decisions made and justify the performance and defend against the legal challenges that are going to proliferate

Our company is a LEED for Homes Provider and that system is working very well as opposed to the other LEED systems and can perhaps address the need for flexibility and innovation. With LEED for Homes, the Provider acts almost as a mediator and guide for the project team and then defends the review on a case by case basis. The LEED review process has become a major deterrent for many people pursuing certification, and like others here have mentioned, we have had many clients say that they were unhappy with the prescriptive measures and wanted more flexibility. Perhaps if the systems were more adaptive and made more allowances for regional variations there could be a much more collaborative outcome.

Balance.

well it depends who you are and what are you motivations as to how balance can be defined. But I think we have to look at the broader set of issues and be able to find compromise - sometime circumstances drive compromise in a direction that may not be desired in the strictest sense of sustainable community development.

What are the key issues for a community.

In Vancouver it may be access to reasonable housing costs

in China - it may be improving your health

In some regions it may be water shortages

In Europe it may be energy - when electricity costs 25C a KW hour versus 6.3 cents in Vancouver.

So how can we apply a standard approach when the issue we are dealing with is global And what are the real priorities. Is it resource depletion, climate chane, health, social wellbeing etc

LEED-ND Neighbourhood Pattern and Design category has the largest point allocation? This category is very specific with regards to what LEED-ND considers to be walkable. Interested in what you consider the walkability factor of a community to entail?

interesting point Roger. it was mentioned earlier that a client was committed to the 'brand of LEED'. This is common but I think it confirms that the LEED label/certificate is often the goal instead of longterm building performance. The cost implications of M&V are too high for the market to sustain.

We heard about efficiency, particularly energy efficiency, connected, resilient, and integrated planning, also it must be walkable, and access to healthy food, I would assume as well to local and organic. What about diversity, a sustainable community offers a diversity of amenities, a diversity of food experiences, walkable places, green spaces and so forth. Let's move to question, as you seem to be most interested in that question.

How can you satisfy a rigorous standards rating system that still allows for flexibility in meeting local conditions and at the same time, optimizes its innovation? If not LEED ND, then what?

the top 3 characteristics of a sustainable community are well captured in LEED ND.

1) Smart location - The best places to develop are those with existing services – where we can more efficiently use the services that are already there – sewer, water, utilities, roads, transit. Serviced by existing/upgraded infrastructure. It is ideal to have a location that is transit oriented.

2) Density and compactness is desired. Needs great design with attention to walkabilty/ bikeability, diverse mix of uses to live, work, play, within and around the site. Aging in place with variety of uses and housing forms & affordability. Full range of housing types.

3)Green construction – using less land, less space and fewer resources. Using the existing assets in and around the site – stormwater, Energy, water, waste management – tailored to what is appropriate to the site

just one more thought. A sustainable community is a community that has a shared understanding and a clear vision (among all its members) for its own long-term development.

Yes - this is an issue - and I think we are going to see movement away from LEED to ASHRAE 189.1 - where the intent of LEED is codified- and not subject to third party approval. I understand there are legal cases emerging related to whether building are actually performing to the criteria that the design team has adopted. And the issue of measurement and verification often falls by the wayside as being an expensive point - and essentially Mand V are key to success.

Re the social components - again this is so dependant on regional issues - the experience in Vancouver has demonstrated that financial issues can easily overwhelm the aspiration to achieve social balance - and then there are those who are strongly opposed to building social housing in the midst of high end residential communities - and there are implications on the marketing and value of the market components when combined with social housing.

What top three characteristics would you use to describe a sustainable community?
How do you think LEED-ND can be strengthened to address the social imperatives of sustainable community development?
How can you satisfy a rigorous standards rating system that still allows for flexibility in meeting local conditions and at the same time, optimizes innovation?

I can echo what Roger just mentioned about the negative interface from the industry with LEED ND. The prescriptive nature of the program does create barriers for industry update. I currently have a client with very large property holdings throughout North America. THey have an expressed mandate for upgrading rental buildings to LEED gold standard. They and their shareholders are committed to the trademark associated with LEED. Currently, we are advising them on a redevelopment property at a skytrain station 38 acres well located for a transpiration oriented development. After we walked though a pre-screen of the scoring for this project, the architecture and design team did not want to be hemmed in by this prescriptive program. It changes the design freedom significantly - namely Neighbourhood Pattern and Design P1: Walkable Streets. the minimum height to street width ratios have a significant impact on design. Based on this, I am not sure that this client will proceed with LEED ND.

1. Efficient - Efficiency in all it's forms: energy efficiency, water efficiency, land use efficiency, materials efficiency, waste efficiency.
2. Ecological - Considers the impact on health of species and ecological communities on-site and off-site.
3. Connected - Transporation is the portion of our ecological footprint effected more by community design than anything else.

- resilient(community is adaptive to change/shocks like social upheaval, economic trends, resource scarcity, etc through awareness and citizen engagement)
- connected (infrastructure is built at the right scale to enhance and not limit economic, social and environmental assets) and social / economic assets reinforce one another
- integrated/holistic (activities consider the 'bigger' picture and are in sync with the bioproductive capacity of local and global ecosystems)

For me, a sustainable community is first and foremost walkable. My neighbourhood is not considered "green", but I can walk to work, walk to get groceries, and walk to enjoy a wide variety of food and entertainment. Secondly, I would say that a sustainable community should have food production and resource generation. Thirdly, a sustainable community should have healthy and thriving natural areas that are integrated into the community for all to enjoy. I know that we are only supposed to list three things, but fourthly I would add that a sustainable community should have an economically diverse population.

Let me push you a little on this, Roger, can you give us more detail on what you mean by balance? Can a community be sustainable if it exports its waste products, for example, what about closed and open systems, district energy systems?

Welcome Odete. Roger, what were the alternatives suggested, or perhaps we should leave this discussion to the end of the dialogue?

Re your question about sustainable communities. I believe this is really focused on Balance - and Balance varies between communities, regions and ethnicity. And as such its difficult to apply a third party standard to community development. The Vancouver Olympic Village achieved the highest point rating for LEED ND in Canada (83 points) - yet the issues around social mix and financial viability were profound.

Good morning Odete - pleased you are here

HI all, my name is Odete Pinho. I work with HB Lanarc- Golder. I was the project coordinator for the City of Vancouver’s submission for the certification of Southeast False Creek under the pilot of LEED for Neighborhood Developments (LEED ND). We are proud that we secured the
highest LEED ND certification score to date for Southeast
False Creek - 83 points.

Our company web site and link to the work we have done in Southeast False Creek http://www.hblanarc.ca/projects/project_details.asp?ProjectID=106

I attended a major presentation with the Vancouver Regional Construction Association this week - attended by a number of senior execs from the major construction companies. The conversation around LEED and LEED approvals was quite negative - focused on the issue of a third party having a role in whether a project is certified - and the legal implications of this.

In the interests of time, let's get started. Our first question is the following.

1. What top three characteristics would you use to describe a sustainable community and why?

Hi everyone, my name is Adam Stoker. I am leading the green communities work of Enermodal Engineering, Canada's largest consulting firm exclusively dedicated to creating green buildings and communities. We have recently certified our 100th LEED project and have had great success using green building rating system to encourage and evolve sustainable design. Personally, I have certified two LEED-ND projects under the USGBC LEED-ND Pilot Program: Currie Barracks in Calgary and Strathearn Redevelopment in Edmonton. I'm excited to share my experiences and thoughts today.

Hi all, my name is Andrea Pelland and I am with EcoAmmo Sustainable Consulting Inc. We are primary LEED facilitators and have worked with almost all the major LEED rating systems, including two LEED ND projects. I am excited to be part of this conversation, thank you for the invite!

Good to meet you Roger.

Good morning all,

I have an hour and half - we are currently working on a program related to Platinum LEED ND certification with caGBC - this will help with this program.

my office is working on a range of issues associated with energy use and building performance.

My web site link is www.rogerbayley.com

My work from the past 4 years is published in the Challenge Series - which my team researched and wrote. www.thechallengeseries.ca

Roger

Welcome, Alastair, so glad you could join us today, we have had some serious rain over the last two days here in Ottawa, but hopefully, for Canada Day, we get some sun!

Hi everyone, my name is Alastair Moore. I am the co-founder of Vancouver based GreenWorks Building Supply, Canada’s first business to market green building materials exclusively. I promote advancements in sustainable community development by raising awareness about the benefits of healthy, low-carbon, and energy-wise buildings, and I have done this by working in several sectors including, municipal and regional government, academia and private business. Today I am working as an independent green building consultant in Vancouver.

I personally am a proponent of third-party rating systems for buildings and neighbourhoods - at least at this point in history as we make the transition to more sustainable communities. I think that if all stakeholders (designers, professionals, finance people, consumers, etc) took a good look at the LEED concepts/products it would help raise awareness about the challenges/opportunities we face.

Welcome to our last real time e-Dialogue before the start of summer vacations. In this conversation, one of my colleagues, Katherine Constantine, will be exploring further her research on LEED nd, and how to have a flexible and yet accountable system for designing sustainable communities. Before we begin, could I please ask each of you to introduce yourself and perhaps add a line or two about your thoughts about this topic?